| Author | Message | ||
     Barbara and Barry Neiderhiser New member Username: barbbarry Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 207.144.116.108 Rating: N/A |
I am at a loss as to what to do for her. Sylvia is still breathing heavily. However, she is acting fine, tail up, browsing, drinking water. She has received now 4 courses of Nuflor at 8cc SQ on 12/29, 1/1, 1/4, 1/7. Could the problem with her udder cause her to be stressed and result in this labored breathing? Her lungs do sound as if there is some fluid in them. I have tried to open the hard udder to put in Tomorrow, but can't. My husband put penicillin in the top of her udder which actually did reduce the hardness of her udder. The udder is looser and she has two hard spots. Our vet said absolutely do not inject the Penicillin in the udder. So we have stopped doing this. Her bottle jaw is almost gone now. I have taken the course to let her be a goat. Minerals (goat blend) are available free choice along with baking soda. She prefers to browse on pine needles and briers in the woods beside the house. Thank you for your help with her. | ||
| Barb (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From: 207.144.116.163 Rating: N/A |
Maggie, thank you so much for your help. You saved this dear girl. I checked on Sylvia this morning and she thought that I was going to do more than check, and bolted out of the shed. She is looking good! No nasal discharge and activity level is better! I will give her the Nuflor as suggested at 2 injection sites and give the 8cc dosage today and then again on Thursday. Thank you so very much for your help! | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 225 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.216.141 Rating: N/A |
The 8 cc dose is just a bit high, but not too high when giving it SQ every other day on further research. That is the dose used for cattle and the safety margin seems to be at least 10 times that dose with only moderate side effects. So continue at 8 cc, I would divide it between 2 injection sites and give as the vet recommended for 2 more doses. Nothing wrong with a little nasal discharge this time of year. Glad she is out being a goat. Maggie Leman Goat 911 Capri Medic | ||
| barb (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From: 207.144.116.133 Rating: N/A |
Sylvia was out grazing after the rain today. Appetite seems to be good. She has a mild clear nasal discharge, but no foaming at her mouth. She has had 2 Nuflor treatments should I finish the treaments with 2 more? Should I continue with 8cc SQ or reduce the dosage? Isn't 8cc alot for a goat who weighs about 120 lbs. or should I continue at this dosage since it seems to be helping her? Should I give the dosage at 2 sites instead of 1? Thanks | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 222 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.216.141 Rating: N/A |
Penicillin is given orally ONLY in cases of enterotoxemia where you actually WANT to kill the rumen and intestinal microbes where there has been an overgrowth of very harmful microbes that are usually kept in check by the beneficial microbes (once again that delicate balance thing). It is not recommended to give it orally at any other time as it also kills a substantial number of the good digestive microbes. Oral antibiotics in ruminants as a rule is just not a good idea, unless you WANT to kill digestive microbes. Since her breathing has improved and the bottle jaw is less I would not worry too much about giving more cydectin at this time. The bottle jaw can somewhat return during the day as she spends more time browsing and grazing and holding her head lower than her heart. Have her fecal exam done in 2-3 weeks to see where she is. If you gave 4 to 7 cc of the cydectin you probably gave a nearly adequate dose and she may have weighed a bit less when you started treating her for worms. Maggie Leman Goat 911 Capri Medic | ||
| barb (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From: 206.74.43.54 Rating: N/A |
Sylvia is 114 lbs. according to the formula that you gave me. So, I underdosed her by about 2 ccs. Her breathing is better this morning. The loose skin under her chin is less, the skin is going back in place. I think she's getting better! THANK YOU! It's good to know that I can give the B complex orally. I hate to give them injections. Oh a question, I've read that penicillin can be given orally. Is it as effective as an injection? Do you need to increase the dosage? What are your thoughts about this? Since I've been receiving the e-mail messages, I've been taking notes on all the wonderful information that you have given. Even though it is heartbreaking to read about a dear animal in trouble. As a novice, all I can do is pray for them. Thank you! Thank you GoatWorld for providing this help! | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 221 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.216.141 Rating: N/A |
If she were mine I would wait 2-3 weeks from Saturday and do a fecal exam. You have given repeated doses of cydectin and it may well have been enough. Cydectin is considered to be the strongest dewormer on the market, the state of the art in parasite control. But eventually parasites will become resistant and after that you may have nowhere to go, except to choose a dewormer from a different family and hope that it works solely because the worms are not as resistant to it as they are to the cydectin. You need to try to use the cydectin only as you need it. Since she doesn't look wormy except that she is anemic, she may just need time and healing to get over the damage the worms caused and rebuild her blood. I hardly ever give vitamin and iron supplements as most feeds have more than adequate in them for a goat to recover. But I have never had one with bottle jaw either, so perhaps giving her a once daily dose of geritol and B Complex (you can give both orally mixed together) and then just let her be a goat. Try out that formula for figuring weight and see if you were off by much....Get back to me on that. Maggie Leman Goat 911 Capri Medic | ||
| Barb (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From: 206.74.43.54 Rating: N/A |
Since I probably underdosed her with Cydectin on Saturday. When should I give her another dosage? Thank you so very much for your advise and teaching. I appreciate your help so very much. It's 7:30 in the morning and I'm going out to check on her now. She is up in the shed and appears to be good. Since I did not give her pig paste or B complex last night, I gave her some geritol. I'm also concerned about doing too much and also doing too little. It's kind of like the story about the 3 bears porridge! What is "just right"? | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 220 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.216.141 Rating: N/A |
Give Geritol at the adult dose once or twice a day. Giving more copper than the Golden Blend already has is very risky. Copper can be very toxic, the only indication your goats are getting too much is dead goats, you don't get any warning. Her coat pretty much indicates she is probably getting plenty of copper. A sparce dull faded out coat is a sign (and usually the most indicative) of copper deficiency, she doesn't have this!! Please don't give any more copper than she is already getting. If she has not been getting enough of several other minerals such as zinc, molybdenum, calcium and sulfates, even normal amounts of copper can be toxic. Several of the symptoms she is and has displayed could possibly be from COPPER POISONING. Thes include being off feed, elevated heart and respiratory rates, dehydration, even the frothing at the mouth. Her blood serum may be pink and he urine may be red-brown. The trick to getting goats the minerals they need is to give them IN BALANCE. Too much of one leads to not enough of another. Giving copper sulfate at as little as 60 mg/kg kills most goats. Do not give copper sulfate! I don't think the goat serum is going to help right now. Getting her parasite problem under control will. Many boer does weigh alot more than 130 pounds, many dairy does weigh at least that much. Most recently I have heard the dose recommended at 1 cc per 15 pounds (in which case you gave enough for a 90 pound doe and I have pygmy wethers that weigh that much). Fiasco farms recommends 1 cc at 20 pounds in which case you may have still under dosed. I used to dose my does at twice the cattle dose by weight with no problems. It may even be best to discontinue the iron and other vitamins and let her sytem rest from the constant bombardment of drugs and additives. Just let her be a goat, she is eating, drinking, browsing and her coat is healthy and shiny. Most of the respiratory problems have stopped. There's not much more you can do but to let her recover with time. Maggie Leman Goat 911 Capri Medic | ||
| Barb (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From: 207.144.116.102 Rating: N/A |
Maggie, I have had a problem with nutridrench. The times that I've used it seemed to iritate the goat's stomach. Maybe I wasn't presenting it properly- too much at one time. What is the dosage and how often. Our goats seemed to like geritol and it seemed to be managed better. If this could be a good substitute how much should I give her and how often? Would giving her goat serum help? If so how much and how often? About copper deficieny, Sylvia's coat is shiney and she has no hair loss. She does have loose skin under her chin but no fluid is in it. This is bottle jaw- right? Since our well water has iron in it, would it be useless to add copper sulfate as an additive? But if it would help, how much should be added and how often should I present it to them? I apologize for all the questions, you are so knowledgeable and I know so little (but more than I did when we started caring for goats 3 yrs ago). Thanks | ||
| barb (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From: 207.144.116.102 Rating: N/A |
One other note- I think that our well water has a high iron content. thank you for letting me know that our water is probably depleting the copper that the goats are receiving. And yes, I do change the water frequently. They receive fresh water and cleaned water tubs either daily or every other day. Good to know that the apple cider vinegar is really only a flavoring and not what I had hoped it would be- something healthy for them that would give them a boost. These dear creatures are my friends and I want to take good care of them. Thank you for your help! | ||
| Barbara Howard Advanced Member Username: bhoward Post Number: 16 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 208.135.164.26 Rating: N/A |
Hi Sounds good but yes please let us know in the morning how she. Barbara Howard jamesa@mrtc.com 606-522-3388 KY | ||
| Barb (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From: 207.144.116.102 Rating: N/A |
Thank you both for your replies. The foam on her mouth stopped later today. Her breathing is still stressed, but she is eating, her tail is up. She no longer has nasal discharge. When she did have a discharge it was white and cloudy or clear. She did some browsing in the woods today eating mostly briers. then she did come in to eat feed. She has gone in the barn for the night, while her buddies have stayed out. It's about 50 degrees outside. Cinderella' nasal discharge is now dried and her behavior is my typical "strong willed kid". She is our first bottle fed and is loved alot. Cinderella often spends the evening with me watching TV. She particularly likes to watch Nascar races! She was the Flower Kid in our wedding. She is very dear to us. Well, I'll admit they all are! Maggie and Barbara, thank you for your help. I'll give a report on how Sylvia is doing in the morning. I did give her another dosage of Nuflor 8cc SQ. tonight. I did not give her another shot of bamamine since it can cause damage to the stomach if given too much. The dosage of cydectin I used was based on 1 cc per 22 pounds. I estimated her weight as 130 lbs and gave her 6 ccs. | ||
| Barbara Howard Advanced Member Username: bhoward Post Number: 15 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 208.135.164.26 Rating: N/A |
Hi, Have you got a temp on this goat that is the window into the body. I use Sweetlix loose minerals or tubs that is great. Does she have hair thinning or loss of condition? }}}} Barbara Howard jamesa@mrtc.com 606-522-3388 KY | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 219 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.216.141 Rating: N/A |
Your goat has been through a lot. As you have figured out she would have been alot better off not to be sent away to "recuperate". No goat does well with change. I have found with my does whose kidding experiences don't go well do best when turned back out with their buddies as soon as possible, with their routines returned to the prekidding routine. Nuflor and penicillin may counteract each other, so the switching back and forth that has been going on may have resulted in neither antibiotic working. You have been underdosing the penicillin. Give 1 cc per 15 to 20 pounds by SQ injection TWICE a day for at least 5 consecutive days. Nuflor is given at 3 cc per 100 pounds every other day for at least 4 doses. This is one drug that is likely better given IM as it is absorbed better. There is a lot of resistance to penicillin and it may not be the best choice anymore. Nuflor is a good broad spectrum antibiotic, probably more effective than penicillin as there is likely less resistant bacteria to it. Giving one injection of any antibiotic is pretty useless. None of them stay in a goat's system for long as a goat's metabolism is much higher than a cow, sheep or horse's. Underdosing or giving just one or two injections leaves the most resistant bacteria to reproduce causing a relapse but with a much harder to treat bacteria being the cause. You never say how much cydectin you are giving. The dose is 1 cc per 15 pounds orally. Have a fecal exam done 3 weeks after the last deworming (any sooner and results are not accurate). And again 6 weeks after the last dose. You need to be sure of your goats weight. Most people seriously under guess, then seriously underdose. Here is a helpful formula using body measurements as there is no goat weight tape that is accurate for meat type goats. Measure in inches around the heartgirth (around the body just behind the front legs), measure in inches the length of the body from the point of the shoulder (just at the chest) to the pin bones (at the base of the tail). Multiply heartgirth x heartgirth x length then divide by 300. Anemia probably indicates she still has a problem with parasites. Getting over anemia also takes a good bit of time. It takes a human 60 days to replace the red blood cells given during a blood donation and this doesn't cause symptomatic anemia. Your goat has alot further to go than this. The Golden Blend minerals is a very good choice for helping with copper deficiency. Most minerals recommend not giving any other choice of salt or minerals. Be sure you offer only the Golden Blend. It is the salt in these mineral supplements that attract the goats and make them eat it, not the minerals themselves. Offering another source of salt or a different mineral mix just "muddies the water" making none of them very effective. Adding a piece of copper pipe to the water trough is useless as I would hope you change the water regularly. Adding vitamin C to the water is pretty useless as they don't drink enough out of a big trough to get a therapeutic dose and it breaks down when exposed to light. Adding vinegar to the water is for goats that travel alot. It flavors the water. It is then added to the water at shows to make the water taste the same as at home. My goats don't fall for this ( I do show), they can still tell the difference. If your water is very high in calcium or iron (does it leave white spots or a brown stain?) this may be binding copper making it less available to the goats. The amount of copper in the Golden Blend though should be high enough to counter this. Too much copper can be fatal. It takes several months to even a year for any mineral deficiencies to truly right themselves. Sylia's labored breathing could be pneumonia, I would continue to treat with the Nuflor, go ahead and give it every 2 days. She may also be breathing harder because she is anemic. She has to breathe harder and more to oxygenate what red blood cells she has. Her heart has to pump harder and faster. She may have fluid in her lungs because the plasma from her blood tends to leak out of the blood vessels in very anemic goats. Continue to give the pig iron daily. But she might do better with a high iron and vitamin supplement like Goat Nutridrench. This is balanced for goats, with vitamins and minerals and made for goats that are stressed, sick or just kidded. Goats are hardy creatures when kept in the right environment and the husbandry is good. You are making good strides with your husbandry I think but boers may not be the best choice for the SE US. Boers were bred for life in dry, hot desert conditions. In these conditions pastures are rotated nearly daily, not returning to an area for a month or more and parasite eggs desiccate and die quickly in these harsh conditions before being picked up by the goats. In wet, warm conditions parasite eggs can survive several months in a pasture waiting for their host to come along and pastures are seldom rotated. The goats graze the same area everyday. Goat are meant to browze at least 10 inches from the ground, ther are less parasite eggs and larva to be picked up this high on the forage. Grazing closer to the ground, eating hay off the ground gives parasites the upper hand and making reinfection very likely. Boers as a breed are not very resistant to parasites at all. And natural resistance is key. They just haven't been here in the US long enough to adapt to our conditions. If Cinderella does not have a fever and the mucus is clear and she is otherwise acting fine and eating and drinking normally she is not sick with anything that antibiotics will treat. Likely her nose runs because it is cold or she has a slight allergy. Maggie Leman Goat 911 Capri Medic | ||
| Barb (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From: 207.144.116.175 Rating: N/A |
Sylvia has more white foam on the sides of her mouth. What do should I do for her. Help! The vet heard some fluid in her lungs on Thursday when he saw her. He asked then if she was foaming at the mouth and at that time she was not. | ||
| Barb (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From: 207.144.116.175 Rating: N/A |
Sylvia is a 3 yr old boer doe, who has been through alot of stress. She kidded in June and lost both kids because she had problems giving birth. She went to a friend's farm to recover and when I picked her up 2 mos later (Sept), she had hoof rot in both hind feet, was extremely thin, and had a hard udder quarter. I was devestated. I wormed her, coccidia treated her, treated the hoof rot and hovered over her. She gained weight taking about a month and a half. The hoof rot is almost cleared up in the hind foot and completely cleared in the other. She now is anemic, has had a cold with clear nasal discharge off and on for weeks. Dec. 21st I gave her Cydectin and Nuflor 6cc SQ. She seemed better and then on Dec. 24 her breathing appeared to be labored. The change to penicillin was made to address both her respiratory problem and her hard udder. I treated her with 10 cc of penicillin, and vitamin B-12. Dec. 26 she received 7cc of penicillin. Dec 27 she was given 7cc of penicillin, vitamin B-12 and pig paste with iron. Dec 28 she was given 5cc of penicillin and vitamin B-12 and pig paste with iron. She seemed to be improving but not enough to make me feel confident that she was out of trouble. I took her to the vet on Dec.29, he recommended 8cc of Nuflor SQ on Dec. 29th and again on Jan 3, 1.5cc banamine for the next 3 days and continuation of the treamtent for anemia. Last night I gave her cydectin again and the banamine injection. Sylvia continues to eat and prefers browsing in the pasture and woods. Her breathing seems to be mildly stressed. She has some white froth at the corners of her mouth. Her tail is up, her overall appearance looks good (no weight loss, good coat). I am feeling that I should go ahead and give her Nuflor today rather than wait until Tuesday. Any suggestions about what to do to bring her through this. I've also put out golden blend minerals. I have added some show bloom and probios to her feed. Besides Sylvia, I have another doe, Cinderella, who has a clear thick nasal discharge that just is dried on her nose. I am hesitant to give her anything wanting her immune system to fight this. Should I give Cinderella anything? She is very healthy and is in her last month- weeks before kidding. About adding to the water, am I doing the right thing? I have put apple cider vinegar and vitamin C in their drinking water- does this help? I've read that it does. What about putting copper tubing in the water to add copper (6" small tubing in a bathtub). The problem that I am having with our herd is that I feel that our feed is missing something. My thought is that if what they eat meets their nutritional needs that their bodies will be able to fight infections, and illnesses. Copper is one of the elements that I think that we are low in. I am new to this forum and appreciate all the information that I have received. This is why this message has so much...HELP me... I need input from those who know! I dearly love my goat friends and am devastated when one is down. We have been caring and loving our goats for 3 years. There is so much to learn. We had thought that goats were hardy animals and instead have found them to be extremely fragile. We are in South Carolina near Charleston and maybe our climate is part of our problem. Thank you for your help! |