| Author | Message | ||
     kristal New member Username: kristal Post Number: 10 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 4.89.133.251 Rating: N/A |
My children are pretty upset, but they realize he is not suffering anymore. I really appreciate all your help. I know what to look for now, hopefully. I am in my second semester for my RN degree, so I hope to learn something to help in treating my goats also. My herd had developed pink eye this morning. I think my goats want me to learn very quickly. They are not letting me absorb much before something new arises. I had gotten a 3 month old nanny, who had pink eye, that I knew nothing about until this morning(the guy who sold her to me called and told us when he last treated her for pink eye), She got out of her pin several nights ago and was running around with my herd. Needless to say I was welcomed at the barn door with a bunch of seepy, red eyed goats. It is pink eye, I actually recognize that one.(ha ha) I was told to give them LA 200 4.5cc per 100lbs. Do you recommend anything else. Can I use cedar chips in their bedding? The package reads Cedar Bedding and Litter.. 100% Naturally Absorbant, Screened& dust free}. Its made by Hartz. Again, Thanks for all your help.. | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 246 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.216.141 Rating: N/A |
I am so sorry he didn't make it, he certainly knew he was loved and you did everything you could do to help. He did teach you many valuable things before he passed on, and that will help alot in caring for your herd. I think three weeks before seeing any improvement is a bunch of bull, most people treating coccidiosis see an improvement much faster, the most common symptom of coccidiosis is terrible diarrhea and that usually stops or slows dramatically the second or third day, and with polio you should see good signs of recovery within the same time period (he should have stood up) within the same time frame. The three coccidia is not alot, he may not have needed treatment for cocci at all. All goats have some coccidia, if the vet could only find 3 that's okay. If he was finding 3 everytime he checked another area of the slide then maybe the goat had mild to moderate coccidiosis. Still the choice of treating with corid is out of date and would have tended to make the goat's polio worse. Goats don't stumble, get stiff legs or lay with their head turned to the side because they have coccidia. They do that because they have POLIO. It is alarming how many vets don't seem to know about thiamin deficiency in ruminants. I treat any weak goat with Fortified B complex, just to cover the chance that the goat is in the first stages of a bout of polio. I haven't had a full blown case of it in over 15 years (that was a Corid induced case of polio). And I suspect I haven't even had a mild case. Another symptom of polio is that the eyeball will twitch in the socket. You have to look every closely, the twitch can be dramatic or very slight, but will be rhythmic and regular about 2-3 times a second. If a goat has polio and is in the early stages (the first 24 hours) often the first dose of thiamin brings DRAMATIC results. Often the goat is back on its feet acting very close to normal and looking for food and its herdmates. After that brain damage is pretty much a given, but the amount of damage can't be predicted or whether the goat will recover. Generally most authorities agree that if proper treatment isn't started in 48 hours the prognosis for recovery isn't good, there is too much brain damage. As capri medics we have to be sure the person treating knows that the thiamin is going to wear off in a few hours and be sure the goat continues to be treated aggressively. You posted on 1/4 for the first time and by then he may have already had polio for a couple of days (from when he first was becoming clumsy) and then the next day was unable to get up on his own. When you finally got to the second vet who gave a vitamin B shot it was probably a B Complex shot and didn't have much thiamin. It may have been all the way until 1/7 that he started getting thiamin, 5 days after the first symptoms appeared. The B 12 doesn't do anything for polio, only B1 will. The main causes of polio is a high grain diet with not enough roughage, feeding moldy grain or hay, overdosing on corid or antibiotics, giving antibiotics orally, a sudden change in feed, feeding grain products that are high in molasses, feeding silage, feeding a grain mix high in corn. It is most common during the winter when the goats are foraging less, hay quality falls and many people raise the amount of grain being given. Maggie Leman Goat 911 Capri Medic | ||
| kristal New member Username: kristal Post Number: 9 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 4.89.131.138 Rating: N/A |
I didn't catch it early enough. I lost my wether this morning @5:58am. He started gasping for air and making a weird noise. | ||
| kristal New member Username: kristal Post Number: 8 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 4.253.126.19 Rating: N/A |
How do you know if you catch it early enough? I noticed he had something wrong, but did I get what he needed into him early enough? Because he was really bad. He has been down (off his feet on his own) for about 3 days now. But his eating habits are increasing. At what point is late.. too late? When I picked up the Thiamin from the vet today, he said we would not see any improvement for 3 weeks, does it take that long to replenish everything he needs? He doesn't "maaahh" very much, is that normal? Have you heard of a goat getting down in this way and having a full recovery? I'm sorry to ask so many questions, I just want him to get better. I really appreciate all your advice. | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 244 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.216.141 Rating: N/A |
By my calculations he needs about 160 to 175 mg of thiamin per dose if he weighs 32 to 35 pounds. Three times a day helps to keep the levels in his body more steady. You can actually give about 1 cc three times a day. I would give it until he is back to standing and getting around again, more like a normal goat. Any excess is easily eliminated by the kidneys. B Complex is a blend of many of the B vitamins there is B1 (thiamin), B2 (riboflavin), B6 (niacin), and B12 (cyanocobalamin). I always keep Fortified B Complex (this formula has more thiamin 100 mg/ml) just in case I am faced with a case of polio or other disease that affects the nervous system. B Complex also helps heal and sooth a damaged digestive tract (as from a severe parasite or coccidia infestation), promoting a good appetite. The circling, stumbling, dazed look (sometimes actual blindness), not seeming to know where his feet are, going in circles and laying with his head pulled into one shoulder or thrown up over his back are signs of neurological disorder, which is what goat polio is. The correct name of the condition is polioencephalomalacia. Its sole cause is thiamin deficiency, it is not caused by a specific germ but is caused by something that affects the goat's metabolism (usually feed related but sometimes from giving oral antibiotics or other meds that affect the vital digestive microbes). So it is a metabolic disorder. Nearly all of a goat's thiamin needs are produced by the rumen and intestinal microbes as THEY digest the forage eaten by the goat. Goat digest primarily through fermentation, the action of certain microbes rather than by stomach acid. Anything that upsets these microbes can cause them to die off leaving the goat thiamin deficient. Thiamin is absolutely VITAL to keep all nerve cells alive and functioning. Once you have lost nerve cells they are not regenerated. Polio causes the brain to swell killing even more irreplacable cells often leading to death. If caught early it is easily reversible, you merely have to give enough thiamin to meet the goats needs while the microbes repopulate and the digestive functions normalize. Maggie Leman Goat 911 Capri Medic | ||
| kristal New member Username: kristal Post Number: 7 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 4.89.129.118 Rating: N/A |
My husband said it is alfalpha and orchid grass or clover in our hay. We just got the round bale two weeks ago, it was kept in the barn, from this summers cut. We are in the process of building hay racks in the barn. The vet said to give him 1.5cc of Thiamin twice daily, Can I safely give him that dosage three times a day. This is Thiamin Hydrochloride 200mg/ml and not Vitamin B Complex.(I realize they're the same). You mentioned once about the goat turning to one side or going in circles, pulling his head toward one shoulder. What is this a symptom of? I noticed he wants to lay with his head to his side. I always straighten it back out. | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 242 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.216.141 Rating: N/A |
If the round bale is outside and they are eating off it this could be the source of his polio. Hay that has gotten wet inevitably gets moldy and many molds kills rumen microbes. This along with a heavy parasite load may have caused a domino effect, pushing him into a health crisis. If the hay (including that in the barn) is fed on the ground where the goats can put their feet on it or climb on it) it is a source of infection for parasites and a possible source of the listeria bacteria. All hay should be fed from hay racks, should never be rained on, and should be of "horse" quality, never cow quality. Mineral blocks do not work well for goats. They are designed to be used by animals that have either a large to ngue or a rough tongue. Goat's tongues are quite small and very smooth. The salt in the block makes them stop licking long before they get enough of the minerals to do any good. I recommend changing to a loose beef cattle mineral offered free choice. Choose a mineral that has a ratio of 2 to 1 calcium to phosphorus (about twice as much calcium as phosphorus), 900 to 1500 ppm copper, 2000 to 3000 ppm zinc. You should give the thiamin for at least 5 to 7 days or until he is able to get to his feet by himself. You can give Geritol at the adult dose once or twice a day to help rebuild his red blood cells. Give the B 12 once a day. Deworm the rest of the goats. For the best results, deworm all of them and then repeat the treatment in 2 weeks. You MUST be sure to give enough. Ivermectin is very safe even at 50 times the recommended dose. Underdosing is almost worse than doing nothing as it makes resistant parasites. FYI it is also very hard to OD on panacur, the goat dose is at least 1 cc per 10 pounds, many sources are saying 1 cc per 5 pounds and should be given for 5 to 7 days. Some dewormers don't have such a wide margin of safety but fenbendazole (panancur and safeguard) and ivermectin (Ivomec) have very wide margins of safety. Boer goats and boer crosses seem especially susceptible to parasites. In the desert like conditions that the breed was developed for they didn't need to be very parasite resistant as their environment pretty much took care of the problem for them. My goats have never eaten alfalfa cubes, don't like them at all, they are too big and hard for them to chew and are often made of poor quality alfalfa. There is a good chance of choking on them. They, again, are designed to be eaten by animals much larger than a goat (cattle and horses). Try alfalfa pellets instead but you ARE feeding more than enough grain to meet the needs of your goats. A good quality hay should make up 90 percent of their diet. Is the hay fresh smelling, green and leafy? If it is brownish, sour smelling or smells like dirt, dusty or just stems, been rained on, a year or more old then it isn't much good nutritionally... Maggie Leman Goat 911 Capri Medic | ||
| kristal New member Username: kristal Post Number: 6 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 4.89.132.53 Rating: N/A |
Yes, we have a mineral block in the barn for them. We feed Goat feed, and hay (don't know the type)My father in law sowed alfalfa in his fields and that is where our hay comes from. I have a round bale in the field and around 3 square bales inside the barn for them. I have a feed scooper that I got at the feed store I usually give them 2-3 scoops twice daily. The twins were nothing but skin and bones (scrawny) when we got them. That was about 6 months ago. I'll pick up the Ivomec in the morning. I am going to the feed store in the morning to pick up some alfalfa cubes, the vet said to introduce that into there diets slowly. I'll have to check on the copper .I should give him 3 doses of Thiamin daily for how long? What about the Vit. B12? Give it once daily? Is there any supplement I can give to help build his strength up?? Should I reworm our other goats, just as a cautionary meassure? The Panacur was suppose to be 1cc per 20lbs, 5cc per 100lbs, and I gave him 5cc's for 32lbs.. I thought I overdosed him. This evening he is trying to move around (whole body), he is so much more alert this pm. If I keep working with him and trying to get him to stand and give him the vitamins, will he pull through this?? | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 241 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.216.141 Rating: N/A |
Panacur is fenbendazole and the same as Safeguard, just a different brand. And fenbendazole is largely ineffective in most of the US. If you are going to use it you need to give 4 to 5 times the dose recommended for cattle or horses for at least 5 days and repeat in 2 weeks (so a 32 pound goat would be dosed as for a 160 pound cow or horse). So you have underdosed. The eyelids being pale pink indicate the worming is not working. You likely need to reworm but not with panacur or any wormer that has fenbendazole as the active ingredient. Most people find ivermectin (Ivomec) to be very effective and very safe for all goats, even at very high overdoses. I like to use an Ivermectin Injectable for Cattle, give it orally not by injection and give 1 cc per 25 pounds. You only need to dose once. Do keep giving the thiamin, it would be better three times a day. Even goats born small usually catch up by the time they are 6 months old, just like humans. Most boer/nubian crosses are 6 to 8 pounds at birth. Some are smaller if the liter size is 3 or more, but they all should catch up if nothing else is wrong. Do you offer a mineral supplement? Do you feed grain? How much? What kind of hay? Are the feed or minerals labeled for sheep and goats? Anything safe to feed sheep is not good enough for goats, it won't have enough copper. Copper is vital for good growth, immune system health and parasite resistance, and good fertility. Maggie Leman Goat 911 Capri Medic | ||
| kristal New member Username: kristal Post Number: 5 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 4.253.121.250 Rating: N/A |
Yes, I treated for worms last week. I gave him 5cc of Pancura. Which is what the vet said to give him, after that is when he started to go down hill. He is eating on his own, drinking on his own. I do range of motion with his legs three times a day. He puts some pressure on my hands, but not much. He is sitting straight up and actually is holding his head up all by himself. Which is good. I gave him a thiamin shot this morning and going to repeat in the evening. Should I give him another dose of worm medicine. His eyelids are pale pink. He is small for his age, he was born a twin and was very small when they were born. He was bigger before he got sick. I weighed him this morning and he has gained 2 pounds. He seems to be more active today. I stand him up couple times a day but he won't stand on his own, I have to hold him and ease him to the floor. That Mapleton is a yeast pill it helps to rebuild growth to the stomach walls. It helps them get their appetite back. The vet said to keep him on that for 3 more days. But he increased it to 2 pills each day. When the vet took the sample it took 10 minutes and he showed us the coccidia under the microscope and he only had 3 coccidia. | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 239 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.216.141 Rating: N/A |
Do not allow him to lay flat on his side. Prop him up on his chest, use bales of hay or straw to keep him that way. A goat laying on his side can't burp and is prone to fatal bloat. The rumen microbes produce gas all of the time and it needs to escape. You will need to get him standing several times a day to keep the leg muscles from permanently atrophying to the point he won't be able to get himself up ever again. Please please please give thiamin and treat for polio. It is entirely possible for just one goat in a herd to get polio. It is not contagious, parasite load can greatly affect a goats suseptibility, or he may have been the only one to get a moldy bite of feed or hay that caused the polio. Surely the Corid is going to increase the likelihood of him becoming more thiamin deficient. I have had a goat with just really bad coccidia before (more cocci on the slide than could be counted, hundreds in the field) and she never went down, was always able to walk and feed herself even if she was a walking skeleton. The only effective drug then was a sulfa drug I had treated her for a month with Corid at double and triple the recommended dose with no effect whatsoever. This was when I found out that Corid is pretty much useless for treating cocci. I have also lost one kid who had cocci and got polio because of treating with corid. I didn't treat the polio symptoms, just gave the meds for the cocci and he died of polio. I have never heard of mapleton and a google search does not return anything. Are you sure this is what was given? Check with the vet. Have you treated for worms? When was the last treatment, what did you use and how much did you give per pound? Safeguard is useless. Worms can cause severe anemia leading to severe weakness. Damage to the intestine caused by worms can lead to not being able to absorb needed vitamins. Look at his lower inner eyelids. They should be bright rosy pink. If they are pale pink or white he is anemic and needs to be treated for worms too. Please check the other goats, they can get very anemic before showing any other sign except for pale or white membranes. I like to use Ivomec injectable for cattle as it is safest for sick goats. Give it orally, not by injection at 1 cc per 25 pounds once a day for 2 days and repeat in 2 weeks. How many coccidia were seen on the exam? A few (1 to 3 per field) is normal for all adult goats. Rereading your original post he seems to be very small too. Many 9 month old goats would be coming close to breeding size (my 9 month old registered pygmies can weigh as much as he does). He should probably be closer to 80 pounds for the breed cross that he is. He may have a chronic parasite problem that has led to the trouble he is having now. Detecting worm eggs and coccidia in a fecal sample is very dependent on the method the vet uses to prepare the sample. If a vet just smears some feces on a slide they may not see anything at all. If a vet prepares the sample by only doing a float the results may still be inaccurate. If the vet centrifuges the sample after adding the fecal float solution this gives the most accurate and best results. I have done it all three ways and the results using the same sample on the same day all done at the same time was startling! Coccidia also have a very set life span and may not have been present in high enough numbers to be detected in the first sample. Maggie Leman Goat 911 Capri Medic | ||
| kristal New member Username: kristal Post Number: 4 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 4.89.129.4 Rating: N/A |
He can not stand up at all. When I attempt to stand him up, his legs will not hold him up. He holds his head up when he eats, but right now he is lying down on his side. Kicks his legs around to get comfortable. The vet said it would take up to 10 days for him to get back to himself. When I stand him up, he stomps at the ground like he is trying to get his bearings. His legs just doesn't want to cooperate. He is not having seizures or anything, I just think he is very uncomfortable. My other goats are showing no signs of any problems. They're eating fine, drinking water. I would just feel better if I'd see some improvement in him. What is Mapleton used for?? How long does it take Coccidia to show up positive in a goat? The stool sample I took up to the 1st vet on a Thursday only showed worms, by the following this Thursday is when they diagnosed him with Coccidia. Shouldn't they have detected it the first time?? It might have saved him from getting this bad. He seems to have no energy. Is there anything that will bring him out of this quickly at least get him standing on his own again}? | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 236 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.216.141 Rating: N/A |
Don't bother putting meds in the goats water it does not do any good, they won't drink it because it tastes TERRIBLE. B 12 does nothing for thiamin deficiency. Vitamin B 1 is thiamin. Giving thiamin or other B vitamins will not interfere with the B 12. Too much water can cause red blood cells to burst making him anemic, if he is drinking on his own he is likely getting enough. By not moving well do you mean he still staggers? Does he walk in a circle? Is he pulling his head upward or toward one shoulder? Can he stand up by himself? Maggie Leman Goat 911 Capri Medic | ||
| kristal New member Username: kristal Post Number: 3 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 4.89.131.92 Rating: N/A |
I have been using a big syringe on him to give him water every couple of hours. He don't seem to have a problem drinking several times from his tub. I just feel he needed more, so I give him extra water with the syringe. He is starting to eat a little better. His temp has come back up now. He still is not moving well. I drench my other goats with the Corid, I have not put it in their supply water, yet. The B Complex would it interact with the vitamin B12 the vet gave us? We give 1cc every day for 3 days, then every other day. | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 234 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.216.141 Rating: N/A |
Violet is right the other goats won't drink the Corid water. Corid is very bitter. And it does deplete thiamin in the goats too so any goat getting Corid needs to get thiamin a couple of times a day too. Corid is much less effective against coccidia than sulfa drugs (which are less thiamin depleting, safer to give). It hasn't worked in my herd at all for several years. I recommend treating cocci with Albon, Sulmet or Dimethox 12.5% drinking water solution (most feed stores carry at least one brand, it is labeled for poultry and cattle). Don't mix it with the water, it tastes bad too. Give the goats 1 cc per 5 pounds the first day and 1 cc per 10 pounds for 4 more days. Please treat the original goat for polio, it often accompanies a bad case of coccidia and if you don't treat and it continues he could have permanent brain damage, permanent blindness or even die. It DOES not hurt to treat for polio. A fecal sample is a stool sample. Maggie Leman Goat 911 Capri Medic | ||
| Violet Knapp New member Username: violetknapp Post Number: 15 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 207.118.6.105 Rating: N/A |
Kristal, since the vet gave you corid, which depletes thaimin, please give all your goats thaimin, either alone or with the Vit.B I would get the Fortified B complex. His temp is still to low to make me comfortable. Goats are also very picky about stuff in thier water, I would try using a drench gun, or big suringe, go slow and allow him to swollow. Do this every couple hours, so he doesn't dehydrate. http://www.angelfire.com/vt2/hilltopacres/ | ||
| kristal New member Username: kristal Post Number: 2 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 4.89.129.101 Rating: N/A |
Yesterday I took him to another vet in West Virginia, because the first vet didn't have any clue what was wrong. They did a fecal sample, not a stool. They said it was Coccidiosis. And he had it bad. He only had a couple of parasites. They gave him a Vit. B shot, Corid, and Mapleton. He stopped eating and drinking yesterday. His temp was 99, I have him indoors (actually in my house).And treating him daily. I hope he gets his strength back and starts moving around. I have put an electrolyte and hydration supplement in his water(Re-sorb). I also then medicated the rest of my herd with the Corid daily. Is there anything else I can do? Thanks for all the advise. | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 232 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 64.102.64.113 Rating: N/A |
The low temp and his other symptoms points more toward goat polio, caused by a thiamin (Vitamin B1) deficiency, than listeria. In that case the thiamin is the most important thing to give at 5 mg/pound (Fortified B Complex usually has 100 mg/ml, so give at least 1 cc per 20 pounds). When usuing B Complex you have to check for the amount of thiamin in each ml (cc) and dose according to that. Not the recommended dose which would most often be too low to provide the thiamin needed. Any extra B vitamins are easily eliminated in the urine. Be sure he is getting enough to drink. If he can't drink you will have to stomach tube him or give water with a turkey baster. Give the thiamin every 4 to 6 hours by SQ injection for the first 24 hours, then 2 to 3 times a day for 5 to 7 days. You have to give his rumen and intestinal microbes a chance to replenish and start producing thiamin again. This condition is usually caused by eating contaminated or moldy feed or hay, giving oral antibiotics and by some coccidia treatments (Corid). HE NEEDS THIAMIN NOW!! It is the ONLY effective treatment for polio. Polio is most often fatal without prompt treatment. Maggie Leman Goat 911 Capri Medic | ||
| Violet Knapp New member Username: violetknapp Post Number: 14 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 69.29.204.209 Rating: N/A |
Hi Kristal, His temp is dangerously low, it should be around 102. Try to get him warmed up. I would also start with giving thaimin. Or a fortified Vit. B complex. You have to get the thaimin from a vet, but you can get the Fortified Vit.B from a farm store. Give him 3-4 cc every 4-6 hours for the first 24 hours. Could be listeria, so I would also give him penicilian, at about 6cc on the same scedule. To warm him up try warming towels in the dryer, let us know how he is doing. Maggie should respond soon, she will know more. http://www.angelfire.com/vt2/hilltopacres/ | ||
| kristal dawn bryan New member Username: kristal Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2006 Posted From: 4.89.130.104 Rating: N/A |
I have a 9 month wether boer/nubian goat. Couple of days ago he started becoming clumpsy and his front legs would give out on him and he would fall down. He was able to pick himself up and go on about his business. Yesterday, I went up to the barn to check on him and he was not able to stand up on his own. I picked him up and he would fall back down. I took him immediately to the vet, she gave him a shot of Nuflour and Banamine and a pain shot. Today, I got him up out of his pin and tried to walk him. He hesitated but complied. He started to move around slowly around the yard eating the grass and hay. He done well, he would get shaky and fall,but I would help him up and he would go again. He walked around for a couple of hours. I thought he was doing much better. I helped him into his pin. He is laying out there, head turned awkwardly and he is hollaring out. His temp. at the vet was 98 and his weight was 31.8 lbs. I am very worried about him, he was born a twin and she is fine. Please help me, I don't want to lose him. He is very weak and staggers. He acts like his legs are stiff. The vet does not know whats the matter with him. I just started raising goats, I have a herd of nine and don't know much. Please Help. |