| Author | Message | ||
     Theresa Chandler New member Username: tchandler6 Post Number: 14 Registered: 08-2005 Rating: N/A |
I would like some advice or other experienced goat owner's input as to whether or not to give Bo-se to pregnant does. I live in SE Indiana. I have several FB boer does ready to kid soon. One is due on the 7th, this one may be too soon for any bo-se anyway? The rest are 2 weeks and longer before kidding. Is it safe to give these shots and what would a safe dosage be for Indiana? Also, could I give the same dosage orally? Thanks | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 224 Registered: 07-2005 Rating: N/A |
The general recommendation is 1 cc per 40 pounds once or twice a year. It is safe for pregnant does, but given late in the pregnancy may not do the fetuses as much good. It should be given 4 to 6 weeks before kidding to do the fetuses the most good.I believe you can give it orally absorption might not be as good though. You can give it by SQ injection and the goats don't find this to be nearly as objectionable as an IM injection. Nearly all injections can be done SQ. Use one needle to draw up the doses, leave that needle in the bottle and put a fresh needle on to inject the goats. You can use the same syringe over and over, just always change the needle. A fresh sharp needle makes injecting SO much easier! The rubber stopper on those injectable bottle really dull a needle making it hard to get through tough goat hide. It really will make a difference in how you feel about giving injections. I always inject in the loose skin over the lower ribs just behind the elbow. Maggie Leman Goat 911 Capri Medic | ||
| Theresa Chandler New member Username: tchandler6 Post Number: 15 Registered: 08-2005 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Maggie, I thought about giving the bo-se mostly for the benefit of an easier delivery for the does sakes. Am I correct in thinking that it helps the doe at kidding time, as well as the kids? | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 228 Registered: 07-2005 Rating: N/A |
Yes it can as it affects muscle function. You are in a selenium deficient area. It is important to have all trace minerals in adequate supply. I found when I got the selenium and the copper right my doe's kiddings got much easier and MUCH faster. I am also very careful to keep my does very fit, not fat. They tend to not do as well in the showring because my does could use another 10 to 15 pounds of blubber to do well there, and we are talking pygmies! Maggie Leman Goat 911 Capri Medic | ||
| Theresa Chandler New member Username: tchandler6 Post Number: 16 Registered: 08-2005 Rating: N/A |
I have a bottle of Bo-Se, but it has passed the expiration date. Would this bottle be of no real use? Just asking, because it is still half full. Should I discard it, and buy new? Also, would 2 1/2 to 3 cc's be enough for a 150 pound doe to be of some benefit? I know this does not meet the 1 cc/ 40 pounds dosage that you gave me, but I am so very leary of overdosing. My vet had given me the 2 1/2 cc dosage for after they kid. Would it harm the doe that is due over the weekend if I were to give her the bo-se, or could it be helpful for her delivery? Thanks so much for all your help. Sorry for so many questions. | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 230 Registered: 07-2005 Rating: N/A |
If the bottle has been kept at controlled room temperature, it should be fine so long as its not more than a year out of date. yes the lower dosage would be fine but the 1 cc per 40 pounds takes into account that most animals do get some selenium through their diet. It isn't that toxic except if given every day or if the animals is eating a plant that accumulates it every day. But I would follow your vet's recommendations. It probably won't help the doe that is getting ready to kid so much, but it won't hurt either. Are you expecting problems or have you had selenium deficiency problems in the past? If you are just starting to give BoSe you probably won't see much difference this year or in the next six months but next year you will probably see an overall improvement. Maggie Leman Goat 911 Capri Medic | ||
| Theresa Chandler New member Username: tchandler6 Post Number: 17 Registered: 08-2005 Rating: N/A |
Actually the date was January of 05 on the bottle. No, I have not had problems with selenium deficiency, but last year I had about 3 or 4 does (all first timers) to have very mild labor contractions for about two hours. After this amount of time, I went on in and pulled the kids out. They were in position correctly with head and feet where they were supposed to be, but they had not yet presented themselves at the vulva. All live kids. Should I have left them til they at least got to the hard, down to business, contractions? My vet says maybe I didn't give them enough time, maybe because they were all new moms they just needed the extra time to allow the pelvic area to relax and open up to allow the kids to come on down and then would come the harder labor. I have raised dairy goats for 10 years, and they always pushed those kids out, and in a hurry. hardly ever had to assist. Now I am raising FB and percentage boers, and have found them to be a whole different ballgame. This is why I had mentioned that I was concerned about giving the bo-se to these nannies for any extra help in getting those muscles to contract better at kidding time? Yes, I have given the bo-se before kidding and to the kids after birth, but have always only given 2 1/2 cc's, upon the vet's dosage. But after much looking into it, that dosage may not have been doing much good, as it is low dosage for most of my girls. | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 231 Registered: 07-2005 Rating: N/A |
Is it possible these does may have been a bit low in calcium? Calcium is vital for muscle function (uterine contractions). A doe that has a mild case of pregnancy toxemia or hypocalcemia could have a very slow labor and it may cause the contractions to stop. Did any of these does go off feed or eat less for a day or 2 (or more) before kidding? Did they lay around alot in the week or 2 before kidding? Boers seem to be more prone to this that many dairy goats as they are more prone to become overweight during pregnancy. Here is a good article about pregnancy toxemia, ketosis, hypocalcemia and milk fever, all related conditions...http://kinne.net/hypocal2.htm I probalbt would have done the same thing as you. I expect to have kids up and bouncing around within an hour after the water breaking or seeing real contractions. Maggie Leman Goat 911 Capri Medic | ||
| Theresa Chandler New member Username: tchandler6 Post Number: 18 Registered: 08-2005 Rating: N/A |
Actually, I already have that article on Hypocalcemia and pregnancy toxemia printed out and in my folder. I refer back to it from time to time. I don't really remember these does to have went off of their feed or hay before kidding. They were acting perfectly normal. I have cut back on the grain ration and am feeding alfalfa hay mixed with grass hay this year for hopes of having plenty of calcium, plus they get free choice Energilass goat mineral buckets, and loose mineral as well. A couple of them are still as big as a barrel this year, in spite of the grain cut back, though, and I am a little concerned about trouble again with them kidding easily. They are only getting 1/2 cup morning and night of Kent goat feed, mixed with sweet goat feed. So, if this were to happen again this year, (I pray not) mild contractions, should I wait til the contractions get harder and let them do it on their own, or do I go in again and pull the kids? The contractions would eventually get harder with time, wouldn't they? Also, I had a vet tell me that if the doe has not made progress rapidly that I should maybe try giving her 1 cc of oxytosin to help the progress. What is your thoughts on that? | ||
| Theresa Chandler New member Username: tchandler6 Post Number: 19 Registered: 08-2005 Rating: N/A |
After reading more on the hypocalcemia, the article you mentioned says to give alot of alfalfa, but mostly everything else that I have read on it, says that alfalfa is a no-no for late gestation pregnancies. Do you feed alfalfa to your late pregnant does? What is your feeling on the alfalfa? Now I am really worried that I should not have started feeding alfalfa. However, alfalfa could not have been the problem with last year's girls, because I only started the alfalfa this year. (The last month or so) | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 237 Registered: 07-2005 Rating: N/A |
The feelings and opinions on feeding alfalfa have been going through some changes. I don't feed alfalfa but I've never had a real problem with hypocalcemia either. I don't feed my gestating does any different than my dry does, not even in late gestation so long as they maintain a good "fit not fat" body condition. I do raise pygmies and they tend to be a bit different, they get fat on air (seriously easy keepers). I do know of several pygmy breeders though that feed nothing but alfalfa and they swear by it. I do think I WOULD feed more alfalfa (and even less grain) if I could get good alfalfa at a decent price. But here it is 14 to 20 dollars a bale, bit pricy for my herd of 50 does! I feed a grain that is relatively low in fat, and has extra calcium added to it. My does have a big pasture to browse and good hay. If I notice a doe not eating well in late gestation I give some CMPK oral liquid to be sure she is not getting hypocalcemic. Mostly I passed on that article to alert you to the subtle signs of hypocalcemia (pregnancy toxemia) and how to treat it by giving calcium along with propylene glycol. Lots of people would treat pregnancy toxemia by just giving the propylene glycol without giving calcium too. That energilass is mostly calories so you may want to discontinue that. The Energilass is meant for goats on medium to poor forage only, not for goats getting a grain ration according to the info on the Kent Feeds website. Alot of those things also say they are for goats on forage only, you have to be careful of that. I helped out a pygmy owner a couple of years ago that was feeding some of everything under the sun that she had ever heard was good for goats. She gave a relatively small grain ration, free choice grass hay, alfalfa hay, peanut hay, loose goat minerals and the protein and energy mineral buckets. Her does were having HUGE babies that just would not come out (one was 8 pounds, a big pygmy kid is anything 4 pounds and over). She blamed it on her buck, but I was using a buck of the same bloodlines on does with her same bloodlines and having not problems. We finally figured out she was feeding way too much protein and calories. She trimmed down to 50/50 grass and legume hay, the small grain ration (about 1/2 cup a day in 2 feedings) and the loose mineral with no extra protein or calories and her kids started coming the normal size. Since then her does have slimmed down and are still doing fine. Fat goats are at higher risk for hypocalcemia. A fat doe may have a slow labor because the hormones that signal the body to begin labor do not travel through fat well. Birthing is very dependent on a sufficient hormonal signal, adequate muscle response and the kids being in the correct position. I would be hesitant to give oxytocin unless you check to be sure the cervix is completely dilated before giving a small dose of oxytocin. Oxytocin causes uterine contractions. If the cervix is not open the uterus can rupture, because it will contract when you give oxytocin. I have given lutalyse to does that were having slow labors (cervix not dilating very fast) and it seemed to help. Lutalyse is the hormone that signals the end of pregnancy and for the cervix to soften and dilate in preparation for labor (the actual contractions). You also need to know that goat lay down internal fat long before they begin to lay down fat you can actually see and feel under the skin. A fit doe is smooth and muscular, but her bony structure isn't hard to find. Feeling the ribs (or not) is a poor indicator. You feel the spine in the area of the loin to gauge body condition. Here is an article on rating body condition for goats (it is for pygmy goats but can be used on all goats, a fat goat is a fat goat!) http://kinne.net/bcs.htm Anyway it is all a matter of balance. If you feed alot of grain which is always high in phosphorus you have to balance it out somehow by feeding something that is high enough in calcium to get that 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio. Grass hay is relatively low in calcium, alfalfa is relatively high. Since I don't feed much grain I don't need the alfalfa to help get my calcium up, because I do offer a mineral that is high enough in calcium to meet my girls needs. I have tweaked my program for years and found what works for me. You will have to do the same. Maggie Leman Goat 911 Capri Medic |