| Author | Message | ||
     Elaine Elder New member Username: elaine Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 72.152.150.199 Rating: N/A |
I had one sick goat with polio. I found no moldy hay or anything else that could have caused it. That goat made a complete recovery with Vitamin B Complex Shots. I added a "Sweetlix" Goat Block to the pen. The Goat Block had a lot of added vitamins and minerals designed especially for goats. I have 11 goats. It lasted about 3 weeks. I plan on keeping one available to them because even the "Good" brands of goat feed do not have the specific nutrients that goats need. None of the rest of my goats have shown any sign of sickness. As a matter of fact since I added the Goat Block, they all have been more playfull, actually running around and jumping into the air like in a cartoon. If you don't already have one, I suggest a Goat Block with all the right nutrients in it for goats. Especially if they are pregnant. OBGYN Dr's give added supplements to pregnant women - it has to be the same for all animals too. Being pregnant takes a lot out of the mother. | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 1562 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.215.105  Rating: N/A |
Giving antibiotics won't prevent anything, it doesn't stay in the system long enough. So you are right in not wanting to just give them some antibiotics "just in case". One or two injections do less than nothing, it helps create resistant bacteria and we have enough of that already! Antibiotics are only truly useful if you know the goat has an active infection or has one started but is not yet symptomatic (like abdominal surgery, a c-section, an assisted birth where you went all the way into the uterus...) Penicillin isn't really therapeutic for simple polio either, only thiamin is and repopulating the gut microbes. Polio is not usually directly caused by a bacterial infection. Many things can cause the intestinal microbes to stop producing thiamin, worm infestation, giving certain drugs like oral antibiotics or Corid, a change in diet, too many treats, going off feed (you have to feed those microbes to keep them reproducing and happy), bloat lasting long enough to slow peristalsis. My wether used to eat too many oak leaves and the tannins would "upset the delicate balance" and he would get a slight case of polio. Polio symptoms (htat may respond to thiamin treatment) can accompany other diseases, like enterotoxemia, where oral antibiotics are definitely part of the protocol. It is just that listeriosis and polio are so similar at the beginning that only giving thiamin is not a good idea so the recommendation is to start with giving both. If the response to treatment is rapid, one can assume the goat has polio, a thiamin deficiency. If the goat doesn't respond within hours (even minutes when the thiamin is given IV) or within a day one can probably assume the diagnosis is listeriosis. The book Sheep and Goat Medicine by Pugh is also very good but not as well known as Goat Medicine by Smith. It may be a bit less pricy, check Amazon.com that's where I got both of them. Another good book is Goat Health Handbook by Thedford. It is very reasonably priced and has a chart of symptoms to help with diagnosis...It is written for use in areas that have minimal trained veterinary help and so is very practical. It has alot of info on veterinary techniques, recipes for homemade solutions (electrolytes, grain overload treatment...) Maggie Leman Goat 911 Capri Medic | ||
| Sandi Scott New member Username: sarasotasandi Post Number: 93 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.50.252.113 Rating: N/A |
Thanks. I want to get the book by Mary Smith - maybe I can add it to my Christmas list. Turns out the treatment I was looking at was for polio, but either way, the treatment is penicillin and thiamin. Meanwhile, I am watching the rest of the herd (90% are pregnant) like a hawk. I've toyed with the idea of penicillin for everyone, but I really hate to use antibiotics like that. I'll just watch closely. | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 1560 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.215.105 Rating: N/A |
Your goat almost certainly has listeriosis. He has the encephalitic form. This causes brain lesions, microabcesses, generally on just one side of the brain. The paralysis on just one side of his body seems to be a top indicator of this condition rather than polio. Also goats with listeria have loss of appetite, don't even try to eat or drink, most goats with polio maintain a good appetite. You are right it can cause abortion and septicemia, but is most often seen as encephalitis in goats. The bacteria is found nearly everywhere in soils, and in feces of many species of animals and is very hardy. It is found in most goat herds even in healthy animals. The route of infection was likely through his mouth or face, through a small wound actually in his mouth or on his face. Hay or feed contaminated with dirt (or eating off the ground...) is often the source of infection. Eating course food (and what goat doesn't!) makes it more likely. The bacteria thrives in cooler wetter weather. This usually takes 2 to 3 weeks to incubate and cause symptoms. Penicillin is the recommended treatment, but doses must be high and frequent. Raise the dose to 1 cc per 10 pounds given every 6 hours until an imporvement is seen. Giving dexamethazone may help reduce brain inflammation and help the penicillin cross the blood brain barrier. Giving thiamin also helps so keep doing that. I got most of this from Goat Medicine by Mary Smith, DVM. She is considered one of the top (if not the top) goat veterinary authority in this country. She makes no suggestion about sterilizing the gut but I suppose it can't hurt since goats with listeriosis may very well be shedding alot of the bacteria. You will need to keep him hydrated with an electrolyte solution, especially since he is drooling and losing natural bicarbonate, possibly leading to acidosis. Good nursing and supportive care is vital and I think alot more goats with listeriosis would pull through if this is adequate. Goats can recover from listeriosis, but the prognosis, until improvement is seen, is rather poor. You do have the fact that you started proper treatment very quickly on your side. Hopefully he will start to show some improvement. It can take 24 to 36 hours for the antibiotic to start to work. Where there is life there is hope. Maggie Leman Goat 911 Capri Medic | ||
| Sandi Scott New member Username: sarasotasandi Post Number: 92 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.50.252.113 Rating: N/A |
I didn't take his temp - I just knew I had to get high doses of thiamin and penicillin in him fast. haven't even checked for fever - he went down so fast. He has paralysis on one side of the face and is drooling profusely. He does not attempt to eat or drink. I have given 4 doses of thiamin and penicillin so far with no improvement. It's not looking too good for him. My understanding is that l. monocytogenes can cause infection in the brain, GI tract, respiratory, reproductive or mammary system. I always believed that the most common site of infection was the gut, where it would destroy or replace the "good" thiamin producing bacteria. I always thought it was the thiamin deficiency that produced the neurologic signs, and not the bacteria itself. Is there a better antibiotic I could be using for this? | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 1558 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.215.105 Rating: N/A |
Does he have a fever? Does he appear blind? Is one ear drooping or is he drooling or hanging his tongue out to one side? Does he attempt to eat or drink? How many doses of thiamin have you given so far? Sure hope he feels better soon. Maggie Leman Goat 911 Capri Medic | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 1557 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.215.105 Rating: N/A |
Hummm.... interesting since listeriosis is a brain infection..... Penicillin is given frequently and at rather high does to cross the blood/brain barrier... Maggie Leman Goat 911 Capri Medic | ||
| Sandi Scott New member Username: sarasotasandi Post Number: 91 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.50.252.113 Rating: N/A |
Thanks, The resource I was using said to give the first dose of penicillin orally to sterilize the gut in case it's listeriosis, then give thiamin and probiotics. He is not any better or worse tonight. | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 1555 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.215.105 Rating: N/A |
1 cc per 40 pounds for the thiamin should do it. You can give it SQ your goat will be much more comfortable with it. Give it every 4 to 6 hours for the first 24 hours then 2 to 3 times a day for another week or so. No need to give the penicillin orally only by injection, in fact it is NOT a good idea when possibly treating polio or listeriosis. It kills the rumen and intestinal microbes when given orally and that is the exact opposite of what you want to do. Give a probiotic or a couple of tablespoons of yogurt to replenish the lost digestive microbes that make thiamin. Give the penicillin every 6 hours for the first 24 hours then twice a day for 5 more days. Give 1 cc per 15 pounds by SQ injection. IF he improves rapidly you are likely treating polio and don't really need to continue the penicillin. Penicillin IS necessary when treating listeriosis. Almost all injections can go SQ no matter what the bottle says. You give the penicillin orally (and by injection) when treating enterotoxemia because you want to kill the bacteria in the digestive tract for this disease. Don't worry about the overdose of thiamin, excess is excreted in the urine. Maggie Leman Goat 911 Capri Medic | ||
| Sandi Scott New member Username: sarasotasandi Post Number: 90 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 63.87.188.226 Rating: N/A |
I have a wether with classic listeriosis/polio symptoms. Exciteable, stands with head to the wall, eyes twitching, drunken staggering. Within an hour, he had progressed to circling and pulling his head to one side. I got thiamin from the vet, but wasn't sure of the dosage. Not wanting to wait, I gave him 5cc of 200g/ml thiamin IM. I also gave him 5cc penicillin IM and another orally. He's about 50 lbs. What is the proper dose, and how often should I give it? |