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     Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 37 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.205.236 Rating: N/A |
I tend to go with your vet's diagnosis of acute entero. Entero that kills that fast may not be detected by the lab in the samples of tissues that were submitted. They would have to have very fresh or carefully preserved feces or intestinal contents, at least 10 ml from the areas around any lesions (not the actual tissues) and would have to check for the presence of the toxin produced by the clostridial bacteria. The toxins are very fragile. They would likely check for either type C or D, but not have checked for type A. So from my reading the lab may not have been able to accurately test for entero as they may not have had all the tissue or samples they would have needed. In my readiing it also made it pretty clear that a goat who may get entero from having coccidia would have shown some signs of having cocci (unthrifty, diarrhea, you know). I would have fecal checks done on the goats to check for a coccidia count. All goats have some coccidia, some labs just don't get that. Several species of coccidia can give very high counts, but do not cause disease in goats, so this may also be where that came from. | ||
| Theresa Chandler New member Username: tchandler6 Post Number: 7 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 207.69.137.29 Rating: N/A |
Maggie, The results are in from the testing on the doe that I lost a couple weeks ago that I had spoke to you about. I had lost the 2 does in a week. I had the last doe's organs sent off to Purdue (our animal testing lab) and it shocked me to come back showing coccidia. These does were healthy, especially this last one. She was a big healthy pureblood doe. 8 months old. Probably over 100 pounds. No signs of anything that would have even led me to think of coccidia. Also, I had just given all of my young doelings albon on July 15th. These does did not look at all unthrifty, not off feed, not losing weight, no diahrea, until the morning that I found her and then she was dead within 2 hours. Have you ever heard of coccidia being deadly so quickly, with no signs of illness? I have started a round of albon on some of the younger does again, just to be safe. My vet still thinks that enterotoxemia is the culprit, however. Wouldn't the examination by the lab show up if it were the entero? They tested the small intestine, liver, kidney, spleen. Could the coccidia have kicked off a bout of entero which would have resulted in the quick death? Thanks for your help. I appreciate it. | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 16 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.205.236 Rating: N/A |
Entero can cause those symptoms. I think if it had been shock it would have set in much more suddenly and killed much more quickly. I have lots of horse nettle here we have been working slowly on eradicating it and I can tell you it takes the tiniest taste for a goat to NEVER touch it again, if the smell of the stuff doesn't warn them off. And it takes goodly amount to be toxic. It is incredibly bitter and stickery stingy too, nasty stuff. | ||
| Theresa Chandler New member Username: tchandler6 Post Number: 6 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 207.69.139.147 Rating: N/A |
Maggie, I did get the results from the vet's autopsy, and he can't say for sure that it was the entero, because nothing jumped out at him, to prove from the autopy that it was in fact enterotoxemia. He still is leaning towards that though. He asked about her eating any posonous shrubs, which she had not. He is sending organs off to Purdue to have them tested to see if anything shows up. Now I am kind of wondering if it could have been she went into shock from the shots that I give her. (Banamine and Vitamin B complex) After I gave her all of the meds is when she got bad. The first sign I noticed was shaky on her feet, as though drunk. She squatted as though to pee alot, convulsions and then comatose; in a matter of 2 hours, gone. The really terrible thing about all of this, is that if it was shock, by chance, I had epinephrine in the fridge, but vet said not to worry about it being that and to bring her on in. I have never personally had one or seen anything go into shock, that is why I am questioning if that was what it could have been. My husband, son and I did go out and pull up some horse nettles out of the pasture, and then bushhogged the whole area, though, just in case they had been eating on them, which I really don't think that they did. If it was shock, will that show up in the testing? Thanks again for listening. | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 14 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.205.236 Rating: N/A |
It is primarily young goats that have these acute quickly fatal bouts of entero, not the older animals. They may have sub acute or even chronic cases (all of this has gotten me to thinking of 2 of my girls now perhaps having recurring bouts of chronic entero, this will be something I have to explore....their symptoms are just right for chronic entero, anyway that's another thing entirely but God works in mysterious ways). Let's go easy on throwing the entire medicine chest at this. First it hasn't been at all effective in the last two cases. Let's try to do things that may help but won't hurt. Overmedicating is hardly ever a good thing. I don't think you are dealing with worms. Look at the goat's lower inner eyelid, if it is bright rosy pink this problem isn't worms. Most goats the age you are dealing with would not be having coccidia problems either, they are past the age for that. Goats develop a pretty darn good partial immunity to cocci by the time they are 3 to 4 months old. The Albon shouldn't be left in the barn in the heat, and it should be protected from the light. All of my resources say to store sulfa drugs at controlled room temperature. But it is probably okay. It is not going to help anything but a coccidia infection and I don't believe this is what you are dealing with. You do have to be careful about drug interactions too, but I don't think you have messed up there yet. You do have the right item from the Jeffer's catalog. Be aware that if you are treating a possible case you will be giving 15 to 20 ccs at every dose possibly every 3 to 4 hours possibly for 3 to 4 days. 250 ml is about 12 to 16 doses...It can only be effective against types C and D, if you are dealing with type A it will do no good at all. And it is possible it won't help anyway if the goat's case of entero is too acute. Since the 2 year old is chewing her cud I am willing to bet she feels lots better and it was a reaction to the vaccine. Especially siince she has done this before. If you don't have any epinephrine in your medicine chest get some while you are at Jeffers. Her next reaction could be alot worse (I have a dog that gets outrageously sick with her rabies vaccine). Never give any med, especially a vaccine or antitoxin without having epinephrine right on hand with a needle and syringe ready. The dose is 1 cc per 100 pounds. I have found the cydectin to be quite effective, the goats hate it given orally but it seems safe enough. It has been implicated in causing abortion and nerve damage especially at overdoses and when used as a pour on. I too prefer to use the much safer Ivermectin. Go to bed, let the goats sleep. Hopefully you will have more info in the morning from the vet. | ||
| Theresa Chandler New member Username: tchandler6 Post Number: 5 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 207.69.137.38 Rating: N/A |
Maggie, You have been so helpful. I will not give any grain for a while, but the Kent I just bought 4 bags last week, and only one of those have even been opened. But, yes, I do keep my feed in the barn. I am just at a loss, I want to make sure to do the right thing. So you think the baking soda will hold everyone over til morning? Should I get the 2 year old out and recheck her temp (it has been 8 hours) She is chewing her cud now, I am hoping the fever has broke and she was just running a fever because of the vaccination that I had given her earlier this afternoon. | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 13 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.205.236 Rating: N/A |
I think you should stop the grain, it may be contaminated with a mold you can neither see nor smell but that is causing the good microbes in the digestive system to die off. Me personally I would replace it with an entirely new batch. Won't hurt to give penicillin if one is acting off, I would give the entire dose by injection, but that is me personally. I really hesitate to give any antibiotics orally in fear of doing more harm than good, espeecially if the microbes are out of balance already. My resource also says you can give activated charcoal to help absorb any toxin released by the clostridium bacteria, this may be helpful especially when you don't have the CD antitoxin and if your entero is not caused by the CD type(s). You can get an activated charcoal liquid medicine for humans at Walmart. It is for poisoning. Use the adult dose. Walmart especially a Super Walmart will have yogurt. A well stocked convenience store may have yogurt. I am willing to bet you can wait until morning for the probios or yogurt tho. You will need quite a lot I suspect. Of course you might look into lactobacillus capsules as possibly more cost efficient than yogurt, same good bacteria as found in yogurt. | ||
| Theresa Chandler New member Username: tchandler6 Post Number: 4 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 207.69.137.38 Rating: N/A |
Maggie, this goes with my last posting. The CD antitoxin you are talking about, is that the one in the Jeffers book (Clostridium Perfringens Types C & D Antitoxins by Colorado Serum) It sells for $25.55 for 250 ml. Just want to know for sure exactly the right one, I will run to get some tomorrow, don't want to wait to order thru Jeffers and waste any time. Also, I had given both the other girls cydectin wormer, I normally use ivermectin, as I was always afraid to use cydectin, but my vet said it was safe. Also, I gave them both albon, which had been in my barn, and was at the bottom of the gallon. What is your feelings on using cydectin as a drench? Do you think in any way the albon being left in the barn could have done anything? Sorry for all the questions, just worried in Indiana. | ||
| (Unregistered Guest) Unregistered guest Posted From: 207.69.137.38 Rating: N/A |
Maggie, should I stop the grain alltogether at this present time? Then start back up slowly after everyone is out of danger? I gave everyone some baking soda in between of the time I had posted the last message and your last one. If I notice them just acting "off" would it hurt to dose with penicillin just for preventative? It is 1:00 a.m. here, I am seriously thinking about going somewhere to go see if I can find some yogurt. What do you think? | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 12 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.205.236 Rating: N/A |
Entero is not contagious one goat to another. Maybe it is the present lot of feed you have, not the alfalfa. I have found my feed can spoil very quickly if I keep it in the barn, this summer has been particularly bad with it being so hot and wet. I now keep my feed in my air conditioned garage and I don't have any problems. Looking back over your posts I would implicate the Kent Feed at this time as the timing is right. To save money you can use yogurt with live cultures in place of probios, give each goat 1/4 cup or so. You can mix it with a bit of water so you can suck it up in a big syringe for oral dosing. Reading up in my favorite veterinary reference the recommendations are to give 15 to 20 ml of the antitoxin every 3 to 4 hours by SQ injection until the goat is obviosly stabilized. Of course this may only work if the entero your goat may be having is caused by the C or D types. If it is caused by the A type the antitoxin will not be effective. You can also give all of your goats a preventative dose of the antitoxin at 5 cc by SQ injection. This affords immediate protection for 3 to 4 weeks while the vaccine has time to become effective. The other recommendation was to cut feeding grain as it is often the culprit. And that has been your most recent change where the timing is right for the cases you have had. Well fed goats are not inclined to eat anything poisonous. Most poisonous plants taste bad and with most it takes a quantity to cause a serious problem. Anything that is causing diarrhea is making its way all the way through the 4 stomachs and through a good portion of the intestine before causing a problem. Most poisonous plants affect the goats soon after eating them, the most common symptom is vomiting or convulsions without diarrhea. Try to see if your vet can submit samples to see what type of clostridium may be causing the entero. He/she may not know about the recent cases of type A being a problem and that would make a difference with a course of treatment and preventative measures. | ||
| Theresa Chandler New member Username: tchandler6 Post Number: 3 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 207.69.139.12 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Maggie, We raise our goats on 40 acres of pasture land, so we haven't had to begin feeding hay yet. We normally feed only a good mixed hay (alfalfa, clover and timothy mix) We have only fed this hay right after cutting it this summer just for a treat. The alfalfa we just baled this Monday. I thought it would be good for the girls when they get closer to kidding time in January. I guess maybe that was a bad idea? I have been giving them the alfalfa hay once a day since Monday. I always liked to give them some fresh cut hay, they always like it for something special, besides their grain. The first doe kid that I lost had not had any of this alfalfa hay, because I found her on Monday morning, and we did not bale it until that evening. Is the baking soda sufficient for now, until I can get some more probios tomorrow? I do not have enough for the entire herd. Please tell me that this is not a contagious thing that one girl can get from another from eating after one another or being together. The two girls that have passed away, however, were in 2 separate pasture lots. If it is not the entero, by chance, being I still have not heard from the vet, what about the chance that they could have eaten something poisonous in the pasture? (just wondering) I know I sound really stupid, I REALLY have raised goats for over 10 years, and have NEVER encountered anything like this. I am so afraid when I go out to the barn. I have been going out every couple hours to check on everyone. It's gonna be another sleepless night! These girls and my buck are all my babies. What would the dosage be for the CD antitoxin? | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 11 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.205.236 Rating: N/A |
A vaccine takes 2 to 3 weeks before it gives any protection. The vaccine itself does not give any protection, it stimulates the immune system to produce antibodies that give the protection. This process takes 2 to 3 weeks or so. FYI a vaccine is not at all effective in a young kid under 10 weeks old or so. Young kids DO NOT have a functioning immune system, so there is nothing to stimulate. Vaccines may actually be harmful in goat's this young, using up the antibodies they got from their dam's colostrum. Many times a goat doesn't live long enough to get diarrhea from entero. The few cases I have dealt with the goat never got diarrhea. they were a little off, then very quickly progressed to a mild bloat and intense abdominal pain and then were gone, usually within 2 to 3 hours. If the alfalfa hay was poorly cured this could be the source of your problem. Even if it is fine it may be too much of a change for their intestinal bacteria to quickly adapt. Legume hays, silage and grain feeds are the most common causes of digestive upset. Have you been giving alfalfa hay or have you recently switched from some other type of hay, even a blend? I have found in humid conditions fresh alfalfa seems to absorb moisture from the air and it begins to ferment and mold very quickly. If it is baled too tight it can begin to ferment in the middle, the bales often feel hot when you break them open...It can't hurt to boost those bacteria by giving everybody a good dose of probios. You do use the injectble penicillin but give it orally, many people advise dividing the dose and giving half orally and half by injection. The dose is the same 1 cc per 20 pounds or so. It does kill off intestinal bacteria so giving a dose of probios is necessary to repopulate. It does not hurt to give the CD antitoxin if it turns out not to be the problem. | ||
| Theresa Chandler New member Username: tchandler6 Post Number: 2 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 207.69.137.6 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Maggie, Does the enterotoxemia normally always start with diahrrea? I am in Southeastern IN. As of yet, I have not heard from my vet. Bad stuff, tonight I have another one of my girls not acting right. she didn't come to the feeding area with the rest of my herd. The last time I gave her the CD/T she got a fever from it, so I hope that is all that is going on this time. I took her temp, it is 105. I gave her 7 cc/s of penicillin and 1 1/2 cc/s of banamine. This one is a 2 year old. I am praying that I am not dealing with yet another one. I have been giving them alfalfa hay that was just cut. Is that bad? Also, I did get a new shipment of Kent medicated feed last week. I had always used Kent feed mixed with a mix I have specially mixed at my feed mill. I ran out for about a month or so of the Kent feed, and just used the mix from my mill, but last week I started reintroducing it back to them. I have never had any of this kind of trouble before. With this new girl, after just giving her the vaccination this afternoon, would it have had time to be in effect to fight off any trouble if we are dealing with another case of the entero? God forbid. Do you give the regular injectable penicillin orally? What is the dosage for orally? I do not have any CD antitoxin on hand. If I even suspected another case but was not sure, would it hurt the doe to give her the antitoxin? | ||
| Maggie Leman Moderator Username: maggieleman Post Number: 10 Registered: 07-2005 Posted From: 71.111.205.236 Rating: N/A |
Depending on where you are there is a different strain of enterotoxemia occurring. Here in NC clostridium type A is being seen quite alot, I personally know of nearly a dozen cases, all resulting in death all in vaccinated animals. The vaccine for the types C and D do nothing to protect against it. For now there is no vaccine for this type. Even the CD vaccine is only good about 60 to 80 percent of the time. I would look carefully at ANY feed changes including hay or even a new shipment of feed or any new supplement since it is usually a digestive upset caused by some sort of change of the feed or feeding regimen that triggers the bout of entero. The bacteria that causes the disease is always present in the goat's intestine, it is when the beneficial bacteria die off and the clostrial bacteria proliferate that you have a problem. Have a necropsy done on one of the dead does to confirm the vet's diagnosis and the type of clostridium causing it. The current treatment for entero is to give CD antitoxin (this is not the vaccine) both orally and by injection (and this can't hurt just in case you are dealing with the C or D type), and oral and injected dose of penicillin, baking soda or Milk of Magnesia to count the acidosis that usually comes with entero and to help clear out the digestive system. | ||
| Theresa Chandler New member Username: tchandler6 Post Number: 1 Registered: 08-2005 Posted From: 207.69.137.15 Rating: N/A |
I have a herd of fullblood and percentage boer goats. I have raised goats for over 10 years, and never lost anyone to any types of diseases. In the last week I have had 2 doelings die for no apparent reason, healthy one day, dead the next. My herd is up to date on vaccinations and wormings. I lost a 4 month old doe on Monday. She had diahreea, so I got her out and gave her cydectin, albon, biosol. The next morning she was dead. This morning, I lost an 8 month old doeling. She had diahreea, as of this morning. So, I got her out, dosed her with cydectin, albon, baking soda(in a syringe, mixed with water), biosol, vitamin B complex, (as you notice, I gave her everything I could think of to try to not lose another one) I also gave her probios, and a shot of banamine, because she looked to be having some stomach discomfort. This doe was fine yesterday, eating good, playing with her sister. I rushed her to my vet but she died shortly after we got there. The vet seems to think it may be enterotoxemia. The 8 month old doeling was vaccinated in April. The 4 month old, I just purchased a month or so ago. She was supposedly vaccinated, so I did not revaccinate since she would have been vaccinated shortly before purchasing her. I vaccinated my whole herd today again with the CD/T even though they had all been done within the last year. Mostly all within 6 months ago. I am so afraid of going out each morning and finding another one of my precious girls sick. They just appear to have diahrrea, so I give them their meds as I always have done in the past, and within hours they are gone. I would appreciate any help in this matter that I can get. My vet is doing a autopsy, and is supposed to get back with me this evening. Thank you for your help. |